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Author Topic: The Crap Game Design Document  (Read 15938 times)
T_M_C
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« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2012, 06:45:40 PM »

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All this makes me think of the momentum in Frontier that totally ruined the combat for me.  Realistic?  Maybe.  Fun?  Hell no.

Oh, you've hit the nail on the head there.

And don't forget the color of space was blue too.   Shocked

I can see that the intertia movement idea could work really well, it's just that Braben implemented it really badly.

Which, like you say ruined the game.

The same control method worked really well in Virus / Zarch but was totally unsuitable for Elite.

But what made the original so great was the unrealistic, but fun, flight sim mode which allowed you to engage in lot's of close quarter combat.

Dog fighting a bunch of Thargoids at close range was a real sweaty palms moment for me.   Cheesy

I also think that a flight sim mode is more natural and easy for players to relate too.  You just go where the camera points.

Although Braben should be applauded for trying something new, he shot himself in the foot by not having the original flight mode as an option so players could choose which way they wanted to play.

And i can't think of another space game where that Frontier inertia mode was used.

Which speaks volumes.


Now thats started me thinking about Elite 4.

God Damn.   Tongue

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« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 06:49:08 PM by The_Masked_Coder » Logged
TheKhakinator
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« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2012, 01:33:54 PM »

For me there is one important facet of realism that I am yet to see. I too hate lengthy cutscenes in rally games - give me a realistic time penalty for having the crowd reset my car, but don't make me sit through it for 20 seconds, or at least let me turn it off.

But no, this flaw is one that has forever bothered me. If I hit a wall at 100mph, I am out of the race. Period. I am not backing away from that and rejoining the circuit with little more than a slight lean to one side. I am not extracating myself from the tree I just slid sideways off the gravel into, co-driver first, at speed, and continuing to listen to his accurate pace notes.

This particularly bothers me in rally games where retirements are quite common. I have played rally games with great damage models, to a point. But most don't have any forced retirement. I would very much love to play a rally season wherein I have to drive carefully at times because I might retire the car after a particularly bad knock. Sure, let them restart the stage if they like, but at least have it such that you can't just keep going. It's game breaking for me.

Mad props to Forza 3, as an aside (and possibly earlier Forza games), in which after a few scrapes and knocks to my car's bodywork, my top speed was reduced 7km/h on an oval circuit.
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T_M_C
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« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2012, 03:48:49 PM »

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For me there is one important facet of realism that I am yet to see. I too hate lengthy cutscenes in rally games - give me a realistic time penalty for having the crowd reset my car, but don't make me sit through it for 20 seconds, or at least let me turn it off.

But no, this flaw is one that has forever bothered me. If I hit a wall at 100mph, I am out of the race. Period. I am not backing away from that and rejoining the circuit with little more than a slight lean to one side. I am not extracating myself from the tree I just slid sideways off the gravel into, co-driver first, at speed, and continuing to listen to his accurate pace notes.

This particularly bothers me in rally games where retirements are quite common. I have played rally games with great damage models, to a point. But most don't have any forced retirement. I would very much love to play a rally season wherein I have to drive carefully at times because I might retire the car after a particularly bad knock. Sure, let them restart the stage if they like, but at least have it such that you can't just keep going. It's game breaking for me.

Mad props to Forza 3, as an aside (and possibly earlier Forza games), in which after a few scrapes and knocks to my car's bodywork, my top speed was reduced 7km/h on an oval circuit.


This is one area where Richard Burns gets it right.

You can choose the damage model used in the game, from "no damage" through to "realistic", where a high speed crash means game over with a written off car.

So, at least you can choose how you want to play.

I prefer a low setting where i get full visual damage ( doors hanging off, crumpled bodyword ect ) and moderate physics damage.  The car never gets written off completely, but you sustain enough damage to affect the handling.

Many a time i've limped home with a broken drive chain and no brakes for instance.

This is my prefered Fun settings.  Where i just like to kick back, listen to a radio show and play through some stages.

If i want the full on rally experience then i can alter the settings to suit.  But i usually find the full reality experience much less fun.

Again the point that comes across, is that game allows the user to choose.

It gets it right in a lot of areas and yet in others it fails.

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« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 03:51:13 PM by The_Masked_Coder » Logged
fog
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« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2012, 06:42:19 PM »

But no, this flaw is one that has forever bothered me. If I hit a wall at 100mph, I am out of the race. Period. I am not backing away from that and rejoining the circuit with little more than a slight lean to one side. I am not extracating myself from the tree I just slid sideways off the gravel into, co-driver first, at speed, and continuing to listen to his accurate pace notes.

This particularly bothers me in rally games where retirements are quite common. I have played rally games with great damage models, to a point. But most don't have any forced retirement. I would very much love to play a rally season wherein I have to drive carefully at times because I might retire the car after a particularly bad knock. Sure, let them restart the stage if they like, but at least have it such that you can't just keep going. It's game breaking for me.
Yeah I agree with this as well.  Every racing game should at least have it as an option.  The latest F1 games do and it makes things 10x more terrifying when realistic damage is turned on.

Thinking back, IIRC Revs and the original Crammond F1 games had it as an option and that was almost 30 years ago!


A similar failing can be found in most FPS games these days.  Your character is invariably a bullet sponge and hiding behind a wall for a few seconds regenerates any lost health so any sense of tension or consequence is lost.
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TheKhakinator
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« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2012, 04:10:14 AM »

Yeah "bullet sponge", that really bothers me. I really enjoyed Ghost Recon, Rainbow Six, et al, even Splinter Cell because you really had to be careful. If you got shot you were /lucky/ to be limping slowly the rest of the mission. More often than not you were dead. Couple this with enemies that aren't in the same place every single mission (Rogue Spear did this) and you really had to be on your toes.
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« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2012, 10:39:28 PM »

Yeah "bullet sponge", that really bothers me. I really enjoyed Ghost Recon, Rainbow Six, et al, even Splinter Cell because you really had to be careful. If you got shot you were /lucky/ to be limping slowly the rest of the mission. More often than not you were dead. Couple this with enemies that aren't in the same place every single mission (Rogue Spear did this) and you really had to be on your toes.
You really really should play Dark Souls or Demon Souls if you haven't already.  Then you'll know the true meaning of being careful Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2012, 12:09:20 PM »

Just Cause 2 has the ability to call in weapon drops which is a great feature as you're constantly running low on ammo, grenades etc.

The implementation if awful though. 

So the biggest problem is you can only select one item at a time.  Want a pistol, rifle and grenades?  Well you have to go through the whole process, including cutscenes, 3 times.   Tongue

Select option then wait a little while a skip-able cutscene is loaded and then afterwards wait a little longer while another skip-able cutscene is loaded.

Two button presses to call up the option?  Why the second button press when the first button isn't used for anything else?


The first is by far the biggest problem, but it's amazing how fast the other seemingly minor faults become very very annoying.
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T_M_C
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« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2012, 12:15:35 PM »

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Well you have to go through the whole process, including cutscenes, 3 times.


Ahh, not those dreaded cut scenes.

It's got to be one of the biggest complaints i hear from players.

Those little niggles at first, soon become big glaring issues the more you play.

Again it makes you wonder just how much playtesting goes into these games.

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« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2012, 07:24:30 PM »

Ahh, not those dreaded cut scenes.

It's got to be one of the biggest complaints i hear from players.
The crazy thing in this case is it's literally a two second cut-scene either side of the weapons drop menu.  Utterly pointless.  At first I thought it was hiding the menu loading, but it's skippable so it can't be  Tongue


Again it makes you wonder just how much playtesting goes into these games.
I get the feeling that each part of the game is tested, just not necessarily in a normal gaming situation.  In isolation it looks ok, encounter it every 5 minutes when playing for real and it's not so much fun.


There's been a swing towards public beta testing recently even from the big publishers.  On the one hand you're doing all the bug hunting for them, but on the other it should lead to better, less bug riddled games as a small group of in-house testers can never match the hours put in by thousands of public beta testers.
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« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2012, 10:10:18 AM »

Another gem from Just Cause 2.

The map is massive with some 360+ different cities, towns, military bases, airports etc. so luckily there's a fast travel option to any location you've already visited.

To fast travel you select the option and then simply click on the map wherever you want to go to.  All perfectly reasonable apart from one thing.  When selecting a map location all the mission markers are hidden.

Want to try a specific mission?  Open the map, memorize where the mission icon is, quit map, select fast travel option, wait for cut-scene Tongue, view map, try and remember where mission icon was, click and hope for the best.

Terrible.
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T_M_C
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« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2012, 06:13:37 PM »

 Shocked

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Prime_8
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« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2012, 04:45:50 AM »

yeah too real kills a "game" fun
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« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2012, 02:05:44 PM »

Another from Just Cause 2.  I do love the game though honest Smiley

On your travels you can come across icons for option side missions.  Another good feature poorly implemented.

I started an aeroplane race side mission, but after missing a gate I bailed out of the aeroplane and parachuted safely to earth.  Then, as you do in these open world sandbox games, I went on a killing rampage spending a good hour taking out enemy troops and liberating several villages.  Then I decided to start a story mission but it wouldn't let me because I was already on another mission.  Strange.  Sure enough though bringing up the pause menu showed a "Quit Mission" option so, having no other choice, I selected it and was dumped right back at the start of the aeroplane side mission again, the previous hours progress all lost.

When I bailed out of the plane where was the  message warning me that I was still on that mission and that all other progress would be lost?  Why not automatically end the mission if I crash or leave the plane?  What is the point of allowing me to carry on playing?

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T_M_C
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« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2012, 07:26:34 AM »

Yup.

That qualifies for 'Crap Game Design' Award.   Tongue

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« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2013, 01:16:00 PM »

I love me some Kiarosoft games on iOS, getting hooked unsurprisingly on Game Dev Story and then playing just about every other game on release.

Whether it's Game Dev Story, Grand Prix Story or Soccer, they all follow the same RPG lite style of gameplay, investing money in various upgrades, new employees etc.  Simple stuff.

Anyway playing Grand Prix Story for the first time and you spend a lot of time watching progress dials fill up before you can make your next decision.  It's not game breaking slow, but not as fast as you'd often like in a mobile game.

Almost in acknowledgement of this they've included a 2x game speed option....yay....that you can only use once you've completed the game once at normal speed.  Why on earth would you make the user unlock an option like that? To make matters worse, the simulated F1 races also run at 2x speed and are much more exciting to watch too.  Tongue


Anyway if you haven't played a Kairosoft title I recommend you do.  Love the pixel art in them too. Smiley


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