The Binary Zoo Bog

[donny]

I probably will make it available either from the start or as an unlockable.

i'd allready know how to unlock the editor 

don't know if it's possyble or if it even fits in your game-structure, but you could let the player make their own media-folder
(they'd copy the original, and ajust the images, so they can select there's or the original folder from in the game itself)
offcource, everything thats just a circle should spinn around its centre, even if it doens't seem like doeing so, becous if you'd replayce it with e.g. a sqaure, it looks to static (experienced that in gridwars)

Also, ever thought about writing tutorials in DBPro for 2D games?

yes, that would be awesome, because the best dbpro games are made by you, but actually dbpro was made for building 3D games

Thanks.  When I've done a little more work on it and decided how much potential it has I'll either finish it or release it in demo form.

demo now, real thing later

In DUO all the levels and enemies were simply written in a text file and it took about a month and was incredibly boring.  I realise now that I could have designed 100 better levels within a week if I'd had an editor. Smiley

which text file?
i can't find it, i want to make my wn levels

[fog]

You be a fool, no make that a FOOL, not to release the editor too   You'd also have a thread here for folks to upload their level designs to and an option to load user levels in game.  And also (online) high score tables, zoots, etc for said levels.

Yeah you're right of course, I will release it.....although I'm still arguably a FOOL

Stuff like that just bugs me for some reason. User created content... I have issues I think.

Don't worry it normally bugs me too.  Not that there's anything wrong with user created content, it's just that the majority of it tends to be of questionable quality.  I'm not sure that would be the case with a simple 2D shooter like Tension mind.  And any good stuff we did come across we could bundle together and release to save everyone else having to search through the rubbish

As mentioned earlier I'm still hopefull that the playtesters might come up with a level or two.  Not necessarily design the whole level but maybe just the background (walls etc) and then I can add the enemies to any interesting designs.

don't know if it's possyble or if it even fits in your game-structure, but you could let the player make their own media-folder
(they'd copy the original, and ajust the images, so they can select there's or the original folder from in the game itself)
offcource, everything thats just a circle should spinn around its centre, even if it doens't seem like doeing so, becous if you'd replayce it with e.g. a sqaure, it looks to static (experienced that in gridwars)

It's possible.  Not sure how worth while it is mind when people can easily change the existing images.  I'll see how much work is involved but I can always add little features like this later if there's a demand.

Also, ever thought about writing tutorials in DBPro for 2D games?

yes, that would be awesome, because the best dbpro games are made by you, but actually dbpro was made for building 3D games

I'm not sure about tutorials as proper ones are too time consuming but I'll always answer any questions people have or help them with their own code.

In DUO all the levels and enemies were simply written in a text file and it took about a month and was incredibly boring.  I realise now that I could have designed 100 better levels within a week if I'd had an editor. Smiley

which text file?
i can't find it, i want to make my wn levels

heh.  They were written in a text file but converted to data statements and included in the exe for the final release

[Lyx]

Don't worry it normally bugs me too.  Not that there's anything wrong with user created content, it's just that the majority of it tends to be of questionable quality.  I'm not sure that would be the case with a simple 2D shooter like Tension mind.  And any good stuff we did come across we could bundle together and release to save everyone else having to search through the rubbish

There is a solution to this, as you already hinted: turn it into a competition. Let users create unofficial and unsupported content. Let users put that content on their websites for download. Let that content be loaded into the game. But keep it something entirely seperate from the official stuff. Then hand-select good stuff, add it to the game as you see fit - and credit the authors. Everybody wins, unless this process costs too much effort for the main devs.

- Lyx

[fog]

Don't worry it normally bugs me too.  Not that there's anything wrong with user created content, it's just that the majority of it tends to be of questionable quality.  I'm not sure that would be the case with a simple 2D shooter like Tension mind.  And any good stuff we did come across we could bundle together and release to save everyone else having to search through the rubbish

There is a solution to this, as you already hinted: turn it into a competition. Let users create unofficial and unsupported content. Let users put that content on their websites for download. Let that content be loaded into the game. But keep it something entirely seperate from the official stuff. Then hand-select good stuff, add it to the game as you see fit - and credit the authors. Everybody wins, unless this process costs too much effort for the main devs.

Yeah that's pretty much what I had in mind.  I need to code the editor anyway so I might as well make it available to everyone else.  If they use it great, but if not it's no extra work for me.

The background editor is now pretty much complete so all I need to do now is decide how I'm going to approach the enemy attack wave "scripting".  A fully GUI driven editor like the background one would be the best way to do it and do away with any text file editing at all.  It's just going to be fiddly to get an intuitive system working.  I'm always up for a challenge though

[las6]

A fully GUI driven editor like the background one would be the best way to do it and do away with any text file editing at all.  It's just going to be fiddly to get an intuitive system working.  I'm always up for a challenge though Wink

If I can make a suggestion, I think you should not in any case do a separate editor, even if the level & wave information are stored separatedly. Just give the editor multiple modes or tabs which you can toggle between. This is because if you have one editor that can possibly used to even play the level, it all stays in one place. Should make the level design time quite a bit shorter even if it's a bit more work on the editor side.

[fog]

A fully GUI driven editor like the background one would be the best way to do it and do away with any text file editing at all.  It's just going to be fiddly to get an intuitive system working.  I'm always up for a challenge though Wink

If I can make a suggestion, I think you should not in any case do a separate editor, even if the level & wave information are stored separatedly. Just give the editor multiple modes or tabs which you can toggle between. This is because if you have one editor that can possibly used to even play the level, it all stays in one place. Should make the level design time quite a bit shorter even if it's a bit more work on the editor side.

Yeah including everything in one place was what I meant.  Sorry if me talking about separate editors was confusing.  They will really be separate parts of the same editor which is accessible within the game.

In fact the editor would have three parts:

Background Designer - positions walls, bumpers, set bonus multiplier values, sound fx triggers etc.
Enemy Attack Wave Designer - define which enemies are created, where they appear and at what time intervals
World Designer - lets users alter gravity, the wall elasticity, atmosphere type etc.  Although I might not give access to this one as it's very possible to break stuff with certain combinations of settings lol

Currently the data for each level is stored in 3 separate files.  There was logic behind that decision when I was designing all the levels by hand, but now using a proper level editor it makes more sens to throw everything into a single file so that will change.

[T_M_C]

Kewl.   

TMC

[fog]

Had a couple of days of rest but managed to get a little more done tonight.  The background editor has been tweaked a bit and a few more commands added but, for now anyway, that portion of the editor is finished.  I've also worked out how I'm going to do the enemy attack wave editor and it shouldn't take too long (famous last words).  Then I  just need to rewrite the level file saving and loading routines to stick the bits and pieces currently stored in separate files into a single file.

Note so self:  Remember to encrypt the proper game level files so that people don't just load them into the editor and change them to make it easier....because they will.  Yes you would.  Go on, admit it.

[TheKhakinator]

Note so self:  Remember to encrypt the proper game level files so that people don't just load them into the editor and change them to make it easier....because they will.  Yes you would.  Go on, admit it.

I did that back in a game called AstroRally or something lol.

[fog]

Note so self:  Remember to encrypt the proper game level files so that people don't just load them into the editor and change them to make it easier....because they will.  Yes you would.  Go on, admit it.

I did that back in a game called AstroRally or something lol.

Yup for some people the temptation would be too much

Now I need to decide how the player will access any extra levels created.  Allowing them to pick a single level and play it wont make for a very interesting game.  I'll need to structure these extra levels into some sort of format.  Quite tricky when you don't know how many levels they might have created and how difficult they are

[Lyx]

Now I need to decide how the player will access any extra levels created.  Allowing them to pick a single level and play it wont make for a very interesting game.  I'll need to structure these extra levels into some sort of format.  Quite tricky when you don't know how many levels they might have created and how difficult they are

Make it so that people MUST assign a difficulty level in the editor - then let the player just select any amount of custom levels to play... and order them according to difficulty levels.

[donny]

couldn't you add a lock element?
wich then could only be opened with en editor that is not publically realesed
or a password?

[fog]

Now I need to decide how the player will access any extra levels created.  Allowing them to pick a single level and play it wont make for a very interesting game.  I'll need to structure these extra levels into some sort of format.  Quite tricky when you don't know how many levels they might have created and how difficult they are

Make it so that people MUST assign a difficulty level in the editor - then let the player just select any amount of custom levels to play... and order them according to difficulty levels.

Great in theory and it would certainly work while playing levels you yourself had created but peobably wouldn't be sufficient when sharing levels between users.  The only problem is the reliability of the difficulty ratings given to levels given by users.  One persons easy is another mans hard.....and that's assuming people don't just hit a random number anyway.  If they are rated for difficulty then I'll more than likely use an automatic rating system as, while that wont be perfect either, it will at least be consistant in it's ratings.

Your suggestion might be as good as any mind but we'll worry about that nearer the time.

couldn't you add a lock element?
wich then could only be opened with en editor that is not publically relesed
or a password?

Easier if I just encrypt the files I don't want people to mess with as I already have routines for doing that   I mean they wouldn't be that hard to crack but would anyone really bother?

[T_M_C]

Yup for some people the temptation would be too much

It could be argued, that if people feel the need to hack the game in order to make it playable for themselves, then the game suffers from poor game design.

Surely, if the game is playtested enough by a wide variety of users, then a happy compromise should be found for gameplay difficulty.

I had that problem with ACR.  For me, the game was way too easy, still is. but for most other people it's the complete opposite.  So, in the end i decided to let the user choose his own difficulty settings.  It does mean that anyone can waltz through the game on easy, but i hope it has replay value because it's fun to play and you can up the challenge yourself when you feel like it.

I can see the merrits of of encryption for graphics and music ect but for gameplay, personaly i doubt if it's necessary.

Just my 2 cents   

TMC

[fog]

Yup for some people the temptation would be too much

It could be argued, that if people feel the need to hack the game in order to make it playable for themselves, then the game suffers from poor game design.

Surely, if the game is playtested enough by a wide variety of users, then a happy compromise should be found for gameplay difficulty.

Oh yeah I totally agree with that reasoning.  If people need to edit the levels because they are too hard or simply not fun then the games designer has failed.

I'm talking about the sort of people that edit the levels simply to enable them to get a highscore though.  Something that will be too hard to resist for some people if we have online highscore tables.

If people want to cheat then really that's their loss IMO. Sadly though they wouldn't just be spoiling the game for themselves, but for everyone else who got a legitimate highscore.