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Author Topic: The Binary Zoo Bog  (Read 605218 times)
SiN
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« Reply #300 on: July 04, 2008, 09:52:21 PM »

Ohhh I geddit.
shaders + Zzz = shaderzzz.
lol.

Mo
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binary zoo mobile developer | 32x32 . duotrix . geomex . smiley's shooty adventure . by caffeine monster software | my blog
JDog053
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« Reply #301 on: July 05, 2008, 10:48:28 AM »

Currently writing some simple pixel shaderzzz for possible use in mono's background routines.  Nothing too fancy, just simple geometric distortions, but they should give a lot more variety than the old basic screen stretches.

From a design viewpoint it's not as straight forward as it might be.  It's very easy to create some lovely background distortions that warp and twist everything into beautiful patterns, but in mono many of those would be game breakers.  As the background is the scoring system and progress relies on you being able to see which parts of the screen still need colouring, any warping of the background image mustn't be too severe.

Quite frustrating in a way as I've got some lovely looking routines that I'm having to tone down.  Maybe I can unleash their full potential on the next game  BunnyMonkey!

Great stuff. This is going to be great !
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« Reply #302 on: July 05, 2008, 10:39:37 PM »

Man I could arse around writing shaderzzz forever.  Better not though eh?  BunnyMonkey!
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JDog053
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« Reply #303 on: July 05, 2008, 11:11:08 PM »

Man I could arse around writing shaderzzz forever.  Better not though eh?  BunnyMonkey!

Best not, because a Chinese proverb once said "You can spend a lifetime writing shaderzzz but it would take another to use them" Sun Tsu
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« Reply #304 on: July 05, 2008, 11:22:28 PM »

Man I could arse around writing shaderzzz forever.  Better not though eh?  BunnyMonkey!

Best not, because a Chinese proverb once said "You can spend a lifetime writing shaderzzz but it would take another to use them" Sun Tsu
lmao  Grin

I don't recall that quote from The Art of War  BunnyMonkey!
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JDog053
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« Reply #305 on: July 07, 2008, 12:41:16 PM »

Man I could arse around writing shaderzzz forever.  Better not though eh?  BunnyMonkey!

Best not, because a Chinese proverb once said "You can spend a lifetime writing shaderzzz but it would take another to use them" Sun Tsu
lmao  Grin

I don't recall that quote from The Art of War  BunnyMonkey!

Read it again, its there ! Lmao
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« Reply #306 on: July 07, 2008, 10:15:37 PM »

Knocked up another handful of shaderzzz tonight.  Nothing very exciting, just a few to create basic sine, sawtooth and square waves on the backgrounds.

Not as much fun as writing crazy distortion routines like I have been, but better from a gameplay viewpoint.

Those other routines might well have a home now though.  If I go ahead with mono then I have a few extra game modes intended (currently 5 actually  Tongue ) and one of those modes will be a never ending, chilled out game where you can't die.  As it's just for zonking out to, I might throw some of the more elaborate distortions in there as it wont matter as much if they obscure the gameplay....in fact some people might see that as a bonus Smiley

Then again none of that might happen.  Freeform development being wonderfully unpredictable and all that.  BunnyMonkey!
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PaulCunningham
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« Reply #307 on: July 08, 2008, 01:14:29 PM »

I bet your C# class is called Shaderzzz - go on admit it Smiley

Got any plans for multiplayer?  Co-op would be pretty straightforward I think.  I like the sound of some sort of versus modes too.  P1 attempts to turn screen to white while P2 attempts to go to black - winner is 1st player to colour x% of screen; featuring sneaky colour stealing powerups, etc.
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Paul Cunningham
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« Reply #308 on: July 08, 2008, 02:27:50 PM »

I bet your C# class is called Shaderzzz - go on admit it Smiley
I don't have a specific shaders class, but if I did Smiley

Got any plans for multiplayer?  Co-op would be pretty straightforward I think.  I like the sound of some sort of versus modes too.  P1 attempts to turn screen to white while P2 attempts to go to black - winner is 1st player to colour x% of screen; featuring sneaky colour stealing powerups, etc.
My planned versus mode will work in exactly the way you describe with the screen starting at 50% and one player aiming for 0% (black) and the other 100% (white).  I'll probably throw in a time limit option as well as the % target otherwise I can see games going on forever Smiley

I hadn't give co-op any thought, but it should be easy enough to add.  Famous last words.  BunnyMonkey!  I might just make that an option in the customizable mode I mentioned on the Playtesters board.
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« Reply #309 on: July 09, 2008, 09:13:59 PM »

Finally, finally I've managed to get motion blur and shaderzzz to talk to each other again so we can have both on screen at the same time.  In the end I just deleted all the old code that controlled the draw order of everything and rewrote it. 

The problem code sorted the draw order of the background image, motion blur, screen buffering, the shaderzzz and the foreground objects, depending on what was active, what mode I had everything set to draw in, and which elements had shaderzzz applied.  Phew.  Anyway the logic had obviously become screwed sometime and a rewrite finally sorted the problem.

I often find that just deleting a chunk of code and rewriting it form scratch is a hell of a lot easier than staring at existing code and trying to see why it wont work.  Rewriting it makes you rethink the logic behind it and very often fixes the problem.  Even an idiot like me rarely makes the same logic mistake twice when typing a chunk of code.  Honest.

So to celebrate the fact I can now see what it will look like with everything turned on, I've been testing the newly motion blur and shader powered backgrounds on the 360 and big TV and they look pretty lovely in motion.  Much nicer than the old ones for technical reasons I wont bore everyone with. Kang-a-roo!

Still no game mind and that could yet turn out to be a steaming pile of crap, but at least it will be a neon, psychedelic, blurry, pulsing pile of crap....with shaderzzz on.
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donny
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« Reply #310 on: July 10, 2008, 10:36:04 AM »

I'm getting a bit scared...
please make a tech demo or such so i can see if my medieval graphics card can run your shader overkill
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« Reply #311 on: July 10, 2008, 01:14:44 PM »

I'm getting a bit scared...
please make a tech demo or such so i can see if my medieval graphics card can run your shader overkill
It's certainly not "shader overkill" Smiley

If you can run pixel shader 2.0 stuff then you should be ok.  All I'm doing is simple pixel shader stuff, no fancy vertex shaders as this is strictly 2D.

Binary Zoo : Your 2D Guarantee  Smiley

Ignoring compatibility issues and looking at performance ones, then shaderzzz aren't the power sapper some people might imagine.  The effect of Shaderzzz looks like it must be a processor killer, but from my viewpoint I'm more worried about the impact of throwing a bunch of particles around on the screen.
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« Reply #312 on: July 10, 2008, 06:28:05 PM »

Quote
If you can run pixel shader 2.0 stuff then you should be ok.  All I'm doing is simple pixel shader stuff, no fancy vertex shaders as this is strictly 2D.
I don't even know if my pc van pull that off :s

Quote
Binary Zoo : Your 2D Guarantee  Smiley
Duotris menu Wink

Quote
Ignoring compatibility issues and looking at performance ones, then shaderzzz aren't the power sapper some people might imagine.  The effect of Shaderzzz looks like it must be a processor killer, but from my viewpoint I'm more worried about the impact of throwing a bunch of particles around on the screen.
Aren't shaders pipeline-thigs that do graphical processes in much faster ways then it could have ever been done without that hardware support?

Also, you should put in the option to raise and lower the amount of shader effects and particles
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fog
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« Reply #313 on: July 10, 2008, 07:52:31 PM »

Quote
If you can run pixel shader 2.0 stuff then you should be ok.  All I'm doing is simple pixel shader stuff, no fancy vertex shaders as this is strictly 2D.
I don't even know if my pc van pull that off :s
Well it's possible for low end PC's that I could do the background distortion in the same way as I did in the old version.  It just wont look anywhere near as good as the version that uses shaderzzz.

I could also do a version that used a mesh for the background and distorted that, but I'll only think about that if there's a big demand as that's quite a bit of extra work.


Quote
Binary Zoo : Your 2D Guarantee  Smiley
Duotris menu Wink
Not the menu, but yes the intro.  Good memory as even I had forgotten all about that. Smiley

That's only in there because I was doing some tests with a spinning cube to see whether my motion blur effect would work in 3D as well.


Aren't shaders pipeline-thigs that do graphical processes in much faster ways then it could have ever been done without that hardware support?
Essentially yes.  I try to keep Bog posts as non technical as possible though as not everyone reading might be a developer or geek like us Smiley


Also, you should put in the option to raise and lower the amount of shader effects and particles
Don't worry there will be options just like in previous games.  As well as different hardware, I know people have wildly different tastes in visuals.  One mans too much is another mans not enough.  And then there's las6 Wink
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« Reply #314 on: July 13, 2008, 05:02:19 PM »

Development of mono has thrown up a couple of interesting design dilemmas that most other games don't really have to deal with.

The current "demo" version of mono consists of a single level, but the plan for the new version is that it will consist of a number of different levels.  Now with most level based shmups you simply have to travel a certain distance (horizontal and vertical scrolling shmups) or kill all enemies to progress to the next level (Space Invaders, Asteroids etc), but with mono neither of these level ending states apply.  So the question is...

When do you end a level?

The overall aim is to colour 100% of the background to "complete" a level, but as anyone who has played the old version will know, this is a lot easier said than done.  In fact to the best of my knowledge several people have got very close, but nobody has managed that elusive 100% yet.  So saying you can only progress to the next level on 100% completion of the previous one would not only be prohibitively hard, it would also mean I'd wasted a load of time designing levels nobody will ever see  BunnyMonkey!

So the obvious solution is to set a lower % target that once passed allows progress to the next level, but this in itself raises another problem.  I could set the target at say 75%, but half of the appeal in mono is seeing how close to that magic 100% mark you can get, so immediately transporting players to the next level would eliminate half the fun and challenge.  So the next question is...

Once the required % target for a level has been passed, how do you elegantly allow players to progress to the next level when they want to?

There are numerous different ways you could solve this one, but most are clunky (simply pressing a certain button) or impractical (moving off the side of the screen).  Stay tuned for how I finally solved these tricky dilemmas.   BunnyMonkey!


Thus ends todays boring lecture on game design.  Kudos to anyone that managed to stay awake   Kang-a-roo!
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